Historical Veritas / V-Society Magick Articles archive
Article metadataArchival notice: This is an archival republication of a historical forum article. The text is preserved for research, citation, and continuity; authorship remains with the original forum author where identifiable, and dates/replies/views reflect the surviving capture or Wayback-era ledger where available.
- Author: Prophecy
- Original post date: June 09, 2004, 09:11:12 AM
- Author quote / captured profile/signature line: Theurgist / Veritas Teacher / Posts By Osmosis / Karma: 22
- Article title: Aspects of Possession
- Length: 2967 words (~14 min read)
- Replies / views: 3 / 1127
- Last visible board activity: January 09, 2007, 03:27:27 AM
- Source archive: Forum topic archive
- Local capture source: res/Aspects of Possession.rtfd
- Archival flag/tag: historical archive; Veritas Society; Magick Articles; preserved forum post
Additional archival context
- Archivist abstract: A discussion of possession as an occult, spiritual, and metaphysical phenomenon, likely distinguishing forms, mechanisms, and interpretive hazards.
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This was intended to be an article or lesson of any sort. It started with a question by Sovereign that got Sovereign, Kobok and I into an interesting discussion concerning possession for the most part. When we were done, we decided that it would be of benefit to post the conversation on the forums, and so here it is.Towards the end it branches towards the difference between mind and soul, but this also is useful for understanding possession, and so has been kept. Enjoy:
[20:29] * Prophecy has joined #VAcademy
[20:30] You and the internet seem to be having
quite the dance
[20:30] We always do.
[20:32] I have a question for you --
[20:32] Go ahead.
[20:35] Have you ever found children, or
individuals who haven’t quite fully established an ego, to
be more susceptible; in regards to possession, be it induced by a
third party or a random occurrence? I believe the two to be true, as the lack of an egocentric system, or personality, should make it quite easy for foreign beings to invade.
[20:35] Ah, very good question. It must have arisen
after our conversation this afternoon.
[20:35] A classic example would be a young child --
Jack: Jack doesn't like playing outside. HE feels it's too cold.
[20:35] Nope. It's been a lingering thought for a
few weeks now.
[20:36] Well, there are two sides to the answer of
your question.
[20:38] You see, because most people generically
have an ego, it creates a personality that can act
very similarly to a psychological shield built and sustained by
created characteristics. This shield reacts against
opposing views, thoughts and characteristics, as can be seen by
observing any person throughout the course of a
normal, social day.
[20:38] In that case, it would come down to a
battle of wills.
[20:38] Indeed.
[20:39] Sovereign: I don't think you should
under estimate all children.
[20:39] Sovereign: Some of them seem to be rather
spiritually advanced at times, considering that
they're children.
[20:39] Teenagers are said to be in a stage in
which they’re trying to establish their identity;
perhaps that demographic group would work as well.
[20:39] But at the same time, in the event of a
possession the demon does not usually have the
power to set up its own characteristic ego, and therefore often
simply manipulates the already present ego of the
victim.
[20:40] I don't believe that to be true, Kobok but,
I've taken that into consideration as well.
[20:40] If no true ego is present, then the spirit
may not be able to set up one of his own and avoid
going through the extra effort it would take, therefore leaving the
would-be victim alone.
[20:41] Actually, despite what media such as
"The Exorcist" would induce, most young children don't
experience the possession phenomena, and no child has ever been
recorded undergoing the Stigmata phenomena.
[20:42] Sovereign: I had my first obe at age 3. I may
have only been a couple feet tall at the time, but I don't think much could have hurt me spiritually at the time. My soul was much more competent than my physical body.
[20:42] wow, at 3?
[20:43] The soul of a child is hard to taint.
[20:43] I was speaking in regards to the ego and
will, kobok.
[20:43] Sovereign: As I see it, there are both
conscious and spiritual aspects to "ego" and "will"
[20:43] Depends on which definition of the term ego
you are using.
[20:44] That's why there are two aspects, because there
are at least two different usages of ego.
[20:44] I believe Sovereign is referring to the
psychological identity that most people build
throughout their lives.
[20:44] In the sense of 'the self', ones
personality or identity structure.
[20:44] Yes.
[20:44] Anyways, it was a good question Sovereign.
[20:45] Any others, specifically concerning magic?
[20:45] Or perhaps one for Kobok?
[20:47] It seems a bit silly to simply donate a
child to possess a developed 'will', so to speak; children
are notoriously impressionable.
[20:47] * kobok sets mode: +o Prophecy
[20:47] * kobok has quit IRC (Quit: rebooting )
[20:47] That they are.
[20:47] Though I believe a misunderstanding took
place in which Kobok was referring to the spirit
and we were referring to solely mental aspects.
[20:48] Possession on an Aetheral level is a
completely different subject.
[20:49] I suppose the same thought could be applied
to telepathic suggestion
[20:49] concept, rather
[20:49] Aye.
[20:51] What do you mean?
[20:51] By saying that possession on an aetheral
level is different?
[20:51] Yes.
[20:51] Its rather hard to explain. I don't suppose
you've ever been possessed?
[20:52] Of course.
[20:52] I practice invocation just as much as
evocation or transvocation.
[20:52] Aye, well I have. Not sure how to explain
it when it is not purely mental.
[20:52] Ah yes, transvocation.
[20:53] That's what I was doing when we had our
little session, a few nights ago.
[20:53] Anyways, in the event of mental possession, the victim typically sees what is happening "through a window", so to speak, unable to do anything.
[20:53] But in the event of actual spiritual
take-over, the soul of the person is completely removed
from the body.
[20:54] All that remains is a small link by which
means the victim might be able to battle and
remove the entity, reclaiming possession of the body.
[20:54] While it is rare among regular people, it
sometimes happens to mystics who wander the astral plain often.
[20:54] A spirit may slip into the body while the
unaware mystic is off elsewhere.
[20:55] * kobok has joined #vacademy
[20:55] * ChanServ sets mode: +o kobok
[20:55] Ah. So you believe one form to suppress
ones consciousness/awareness and the other to
demote the mind to a state of paralysis, so to speak?
[20:55] So to speak.
[20:55] Now, it is during this type of possession
that one sometimes receives the Stigmata effect.
[20:56] The stigmata is interesting in the extent
that it is the one thing psychologists can't explain.
Though in fact they can't truly explain possession, at least they
have a reasonable psychological hypothesis.
[20:56] When the stigmata happens, it is because the
soul of the human has come back to the body
and discovered it was already inhabited.
[20:57] And so a battle ensues, often of such
magnitude that various "paranormal" things occur, such
as self-levitation and mutilation with no apparent cause.
[20:57] Prophecy: Define "stigmata"
[20:57] (In this context.)
[20:58] Stigmata in this context is the battle
between two entities in one body that is symbolized by
the unexplained mutilation and levitation of the subject's body,
as well as various rants in barbaric tongues.
[20:58] Prophecy: I don't think anyone would attempt a
psychological explanation for levitation...
[20:59] You were gone, so I'll fill you in. I'm
explaining this in relation to this difference between
possession on a mental level and possession on a spiritual level./
[20:59] Aye, no one has.
[21:00] So Sovereign, that is the difference in the
two types as I've studied them. It basically lies in
the magnitude of the possession and apparent power of the
intelligence.
[21:00] Interesting.
[21:00] And as mentioned, a considerable factor in
straight spiritual possession is whether or not the
man's spirit is in the body when it is taken(as it relates to
astral projection).
[21:02] Prophecy: How, in your opinion, does an
example of possession differentiate itself from a more
conventional severe psychological disorder?
[21:02] The context of the mind or the soul?
Speaking of 'mind and soul', how do you define the two?
[21:04] It seems to be case of cause and affect, in
my opinion.
[21:04] Not to make the implication that I believe
psychological disorders to be attributed to possession, of any kind.
[21:04] To answer Kobok's question, in a case of
genuine possession one will find that the victim's brain tissue and functions are still in good condition, while as in a severe psychological disorder there is commonly evidence of deterioration in correlating parts of the brain.
[21:05] Prophecy: Only certain psychological disorders
exhibit physically observable symptoms. Schizophrenia would be an example of one which usually does. But these are only observable post-mortem.
[21:06] And as for the mind and the soul, I believe
the mind to be the recognizable intelligence produced by our brain, and the way we come recognize the thoughts produced therein. The soul is on a much more primal and powerful level. Self illumination, as St.
Augustine describes it, only occurs when the soul begins to blend with the mind.
[21:06] I don't follow how the two elements are not
one in the same.
[21:06] Prophecy: I would concur with your description
of mind and soul, at least to the extent stated.
[21:07] Perhaps it comes down to paradigm or the
practitioner.
[21:07] I can crush the right side of your head, and
you might live, but your mind would never function correctly again.
[21:07] 3 experts together in a room..
[21:07] No longer would you be able to truly
contemplate complex thoughts.
[21:07] However, your soul would be untainted.
[21:07] Hmm.
[21:07] Sovereign: When you're typing or thinking, do
you hear words in your head? This is referred to as "stream of consciousness".
[21:07] .....Realy?
[21:07] No, actually I don't.
[21:08] I do...
[21:08] The same goes for reading.
[21:09] And Kobok, as for your earlier statement
concerning other psychological disorders, I can not
explain too many as I myself am somewhat limited in that area of
knowledge.
[21:09] Actually, I lied. When typing now, I am
consciously voicing the thoughts; I’ve never paid
any attention though.
[21:09] While I am by common definition an exorcist,
I do plan to study more on psychological diseases in the future.
[21:09] Sovereign: That process is a process of the
brain. When you leave the body and you are simply soul, your stream of consciousness does not go with you. You no longer hear the voice-overs in your head because you didn't take your brain with you.
[21:09] That’s interesting..
[21:10] And therein lays the concept of soul-mind
separation that takes place in powerful OBE experiences, in which the person often does not remember what happened afterwards due to a lack of the physical brain to record the event.
[21:11] And that makes a bit of sense really, since the
stream of consciousness is usually done in a language you learned by experiences on Earth. It's learned by the brain. You can crush the brain and remove the ability to speak language, but you can't crush the soul because it is not contained within the brain.
[21:11] Yes, but then consciousness comes into play
– in order to perceive consciousness must be prevalent.
[21:11] In such cases, the soul often later reveals
the event in deep meditation or gnosis.
[21:11] Present, rather.
[21:12] The holographic mind theory maybe useful.
[21:12] ...Whats that?
[21:13] I vaguely recall the theory having
something to do with the mind and memory. It implies that memory isn’t stored in one particular portion of the brain, but all over; like a network. I can’t remember it in its entirety, though.
[21:13] brb
[21:13] However, some things occur but are not
recorded in the memory as I mentioned.
[21:15] Sovereign: That's how psychologists describe
the function of the brain and memory.
[21:17] A test was run by a psychologist, or
perhaps she was a neurologist on white rats. The rats had been taught a hoard of complex commands, over the course of a few months. They were constantly being tested to see if the commands had been ‘absorbed’, so to speak.
[21:18] The doctor and her staff then proceeded to
perform brain surgery on them, and then execute various exercises to see if the commands were retained.
[21:19] Regardless of which portion of the brain
they removed, the rats were still able to perform X commands.
[21:19] Rats?
[21:19] Sovereign: It should also be noted that we
know memory is not always completely distributed.
[21:19] Yes.
[21:19] Which was enough to help prove the Holograph
Mind Theory.
[21:20] Sovereign: For example, a concussion which
causes swelling in a single region of the brain can result in selective memory loss.
[21:20] However, the concept as to whether or not
such animals have souls is still even hotly religiously debated.
[21:20] I don't recall the experiment and theory in
its full context; I’d have to do a bit more reading. Something along those lines, though.
[21:21] Anyway.
[21:21] I'm not quite sure where I was going with
that...
[21:22] There was an experiment done by Dr. H.P
Burner, a good psychic, particularly skilled in astral projection. They took someone who had literally been turned into a vegetable during a car crash, who could not talk. Burner, having the proclaimed ability to pull someone into the Astral with him, did so and went on to have a conversation with the person's soul.
[21:22] Ah yes. Consciousness.
[21:22] When he came back to his body, he was able
to supply the family with an array of personal information. This did, in effect, show that the soul is unaffected by such mental disabilities, as Burner said he had quite an intelligent conversation with the boy.
[21:23] Granted that the event within itself can not
be scientifically supported.
[21:25] Prophecy: An interesting experiment. That is
the result I would expect, and it would be nice to see further rigorous tests of it.
[21:26] You need some volunteres with have caved in
heads though
[21:26] That it would.
[21:26] There are plenty of people already
unfortunate enough to have such things.
[21:26] True..
[21:26] Indeed sad..
[21:26]
http://www.powertrip.net/~viza/phpb...opic.php?t=1431
[21:27] yes, professional sports players
[21:27] Some of you may find the discussion
interesting.
[21:27] it is interesting
[21:27] Sovereign I believe was referring to the link.
[21:32] Sovereign, it is unknown whether or not a
person in such a state mentioned in that post can astral project.
[21:33] It was perhaps in doubt that it was possible
that Burner took it upon himself to pull the subject into the astral, being as no real communication between them could take place on a physical or directly mental level.
[21:34] Yet at the same time, powerful magic can be
worked directly from the astral realm, as it manifests itself threefold from there. Indeed energy is refined to its
purest form, adding a boost to some types of spells.
[21:35] Now, in the rare event of miraculous recoveries, where a victim who was practically a vegetable makes an astonishing recovery, there have been reports where the healed victims have said they spent the entire coma walking in an "endless plain."
[21:35] ive heard reports like that when the victims
found themselves in Russia
[21:35] This "plain" is likely the astral
plain, as it is the only place the soul's intelligence can manifest
itself when in comatose. If one were to realize that he were in
such a place while in comatose, he could still work magic.
[21:35] How did you reach the conclusion that
workings done on the astral plane have any affects, in regards to amplification?
[21:36] The three-fold world.
[21:36] Celestial, Intellectual and Manifest.
[21:36] I'm not following.
[21:37] When magic is cast, the actual alteration of
energies that makes the operation possible first manifests itself in the purest level as celestial, being pure energy.
[21:37] It is then given an intellectual form so
that the will of the magician can both perceive and accordingly alter it. Once that is accomplished, the effect becomes what
is called manifest, or present in the physical world.
[21:38] Or such are the words of Heinrich Cornellius
Agrippa.
[21:38] A belief I also share.
[21:40] also, prophecy discussed with me another time,
about when negative celestial energy can come into the manifest
[21:40] which was a very interesting subject
[21:41] If you'd like to read a full explanation of the threefold world, read Agrippa's first book of Occult Philosophy.
[21:42] I shall.
[21:43] Well my friends, that was a very interesting
conversation.
[21:43] Quite.
[21:43] as is everyone you hold
[21:44] I thank you for the complement, Thalog. But
Kobok and Sovereign were just as beneficial to it as I, as I believe we all learned a little from each other.
[21:45] I don't think Thalog caught the entire
conversation.
[21:45] yeah i came in late, but it was still
interesting
[21:45] For those interested, a log of our
conversation(since it was held in a large part before most of
you joined) should be posted on Veritas tomorrow.
[21:46] cool
[21:48] sweet, i'll be sure to take a look at it,
i really haven’t been paying attention, but it seemed really interesting what i did see.
Logged
http://www.thedivinescience.org
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